Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:14 pm Post subject: Whose Country Is This, Anyway?
I haven't finish reading the whole thing yet, but from what I've read Israel really seems to be a country full of confusions. Since the beginning of the the narrator says that Israel is a place for the Jews. They say that they came to Israel to find a better place for themselves. Well, considering all the conflicts that are occurring, is Israel really a better place? And also when I was reading about how the parties advertise themselves so that the citizens vote for them is not very respectful. They used religious beliefs that the citizens have upon their religion to threaten them to vote for the parties. It sounds to me like they do not care believe in the religion at all.
I agree that Israel is full of confusion. Probably the most interesting thing I learned from this reading was about the many different types of Jews: from non-religious to ultra orthodox or zionists. All these jews are able to live together in one country and other than conflicts with Palestinians they seem rather content. They talk about the coming of the Messiah and the importance of the land in making them feel like they've come home and are together as a people. They feel like judaism isn't so much spiritual but it is what you do every day and that was what I got as the concept of what Israel means to them. The thing that I find most curious is the difference in religion between the Jews and this is an area I think we can delve more into. it says on page 346 (right between the two pages) that "I have accepted the permanence of our differences." Now a lot of people see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a fight between religion, and this article in some ways indicates that it is because the Jews wanted the land for a communal resort for Jews to be Jews. But on the other hand they are coming here for community, not spirituality necessarily (Some people indicate different perspectives). Now if these jews can accept the differences in other jews, why shouldn't they be able to do the same with the Palestinians? If they can accept these differences then how can the conflict be based around religion at all? These jews in Israel believe in redemption and a Jewish state, but without necessarily strict Jewish spiritual customs (Look at the kid eating pork chops and the lack of spirituality in his Bar-mitzvah). The desire of the land and the significance in their past and as a communal symbol seems more important, so this idea that the conflict is about religion doesn't seem quite right, but I'd like to hear what others have to say on the topic.
I found it important to note the type of language a lot of the Israelis use to describe Israel. Different people referred to Israel at different times as "our land," or mentioned things like "You cannot have the ideal fulfillment of Torah without living in this land," or "This is mine now," or "This is the place. I belong here." At other times, different people said things like "they must be settled" (referring to the land of the west bank. I hope that we will learn more about the israeli colonization of the west bank, which is a particularly controversial topic).
These quotes are especially interesting when you realize that Israel has only existed as a country for around 60 years. Many of the people quoted were alive in a time when Israel simply didnt exist. While many of the Israeli people believe that the land is theirs by divine right (reminds me a bit of manifest destiny, now that I think about it), the Palestinians who had been living there for thousands of years also view the land as fundamentally theirs. One of the reasons that this conflict is so cyclical and seemingly never-ending is that since both side believe they are completely entitled to 100% of the land, neither of them are willing to back down or compromise.
Like Zach I found the different types of jews in the country to be interesting, I'm interested to know how these groups interact. Are there more religious parts of the country then others or is it all pretty mixed? I know form my experience in Israel that there is some tension between those who aren't as religious and the ultra orthodox. One of the people I talked to went on a long rant about how the government subsidizes jews who spend their entire day praying.
What was nice to read was how un-self-conscious people felt about their religion and that they felt like that didn't have to define them. It made think about the religion talks we've had at CSW and how religion fits into your identity. Also it fit in with the discussion about cultural assumption and what is normal.
As Mingkwan brought up, I feel that the religious advertisement is a bit off, just by the fact that the religion means different things to different people. Each advertisement bound to offend quite a few people.
The idea of Judaism in Israel being more about personal identification within the culture of the country really was interesting to me. I never really thought of it that way, but now that it's been brought up I feel that's probably very accurate. Israel is just as much, if not more, a cultural revolution than a spiritual one. That's probably why there is the conflict between Palestine and Israel, as Zach brought up and I think was trying to suggest. This also somewhat ties into Lysander's point. Because of the two cultures, both of which believe that the geographical area of Israel and Palestine belong to them, there is this conflict.
One of the things that surprised me more was the incident where the small Jewish extremist group attempted to destroy the Islamic temple. I know it's not exactly politically correct but I usually associate Islam with extreme religious thinking. (Though now that I think about it there are some extremist Christians in the US.) I wonder, to what level do people excuse certain acts with religion and religious reasons? I feel that this act wasn't really out of true religious hate but rather out of a cultural hate for the Palestinians, and the Mosque was a symbol of Palestine.
To clarify, I'm not trying to say that there is no religious significance of the events, I just feel like religion isn't the sole motivating force, it's mainly culture (which is, yes, motivated a lot by religion, but it is the culture generated by extreme religion, not the extreme religion itself.)
Am I making sense to other people or am I way off?
Follow up to Rock's point on personal identification, I found it really interesting and pleasing to read about how Chafets (pp. 334) talked about his feelings towards the country. "It allows me not to be Jewish, not to be observant." They do not expect their country to be ideal, because they feel belonged and real. This really changed my stereotypical thoughts of Israel people all being religious radicals and fighting over land and resources.
To me, what tied together these people with different religions was their feelings of "belonging" in the area, which on the other hand, as Rock suggested, caused the conflicts between Israel and Palestine.
On page 292 it says: "What really holds this place together at the bottom... is not democracy. It's not Zionism. it's not any ideology or any system, it is that tribal sense of jewish solidarity." -Thats the essence of what this reading meant for me. essentially how the jews of Israel identify as a nation in themselves and are divided based on levels of orthodox. it's a sanctuary, and the main issue seems to be keeping it as a place of immersion for jews, as thats what it seems to stand for. A place that is defined independently by the jewish culture, as opposed to being a box where people who identify as jews sit. I think this also connects back to the idea of how the Middle East is truly divided by religious and cultural groups rather than the physical borders and political systems that came about as a result of imperial control. This is where the difference between the Middle East's geographical center, and its center as a civilization lies.
here are some generic question:
what do you think of a country being defined almost solely by its religion?
btw, save your posts somewhere else if you dont do that already. I forgot this time and the stupid forum made me log in again causing me to lose everything i had written, so I wasted a ton of time trying to remember it. Theres probably some still missing, so any incoherence is probably due to that.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
