Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: First Night!
Read “America in Crisis” and “Prelude to the Convention”(pp. 9–21 in the packet)
Write on the following topics:
1. What were the prevailing forces at play before the constitutional convention? What kind of personalities were there? What was the mood? Why?
2. What was the crisis facing America? Make a list of the problems that the country faced. What are the possible solutions?
America was not doing so hot before the convention; I’ll actually steal the title of this reading and say that America was in crisis. All, or at least most, of the issues America faced resulted from or was extenuated by the lack of unity and communication between states and sense that often times states would fend for themselves at the price of another state. Some of these issues included unpaid debts, disputes over land, access to ports and ability to trade, and slaves. The unpaid debts owed to Briton were the responsibility of congress, but they did not hold the real power or money, the states did. However the states did not give sufficient funds.. The debts also resulted in people taking away land and property from farmers who were the “bottom on the chain”. Eventually farmers began to fight back and started a rebellion. On top of all this, the somewhat claimed land in the west caused tension between land owning states and non-land owning states. Similarly, states with access to ports could control the trade and tax states that needed supplies and could not access them with ports of their own. The issue of slavery caused a huge divide between the north and the south, as the south directly depended on them for economical reasons and the north did not, at least directly. In summery, the states did what was in their favor directly. Problem was, with all the states unable to find a way to collaborate and support each other they all suffered. As for solutions, try to find a way to work together. It sounds remarkably simple and cliché, but from the looks of it all the problems came from all the separation between states.
A quote at the beginning of our reading summed up the mood in America before the Constitutional Convention really well in my opinion: "It all stood out sharply against the romantic backdrop of the previous decade, when Americans were bursting with pride and high expectations. Had the morn been less bright, perhaps the clouds would have appeared less dark. In the tenth year of independence American was in deep trouble" (America in Crisis, 9). For me, this paragraph from the text set up the contrast in the mood and status of America before as compared to now (by now I mean 1786). If, perhaps, America had not gone from sky high to very low (metaphorically), as I think Barbash is saying, the change in the country might not have seemed so drastic.
Jumping to the "Prelude to the Convention" reading, Madison and Washington depict two different personalities. Madison is described as "not the sort to be recognized on the streets or to be greeted by delegations of notables" (Prelude to the Convention, 19), whereas a large crowd awaited for Washington's arrival in Pennsylvania. From what I can infer right now, the two men also seem to approach the convention in different manners. Madison sits in the center of the room and quietly takes notes, while Washington is elected president of the convention and immediately begins speaking to the house.
A few side notes:
1. Today in class we began defining what a constitution really is. The following quote from the "America in Crisis" reading gives another shot at defining some key components of it: "checks and balances, and bills of rights, documents that would serve as models for years to come" (pg 10).
Does anyone have more to add to this list?
2. We also talked in class about most people believing what they're told, and how people can be very convincing, even if they are lying. The part of the "America in Crisis" reading where it speaks about 'the lower sort' versus 'the better sort' reminded me of this because it talks about how it was taken for granted that the 'better sort' was better. Often times people are told something over and over again until it becomes a reality for them, perhaps similar to this situation.
3. I agree with Tasha- easier said than done, but working together and collaborating not just for people within a state, but as the people of the United States (key word being united) is not only a possible solution, but a necessary one in my mind.
Before the Constitution, America was not considered as a whole but rather as pieces. The thirteen republics of America, as Tasha said, lacked very much in unity. So much, in fact, that they had their own currencies! On top of that, each of the thirteen had their own interests, which was probably what caused the "dark clouds" over America. These interests became conflicts with the other republics, conflicts such as trade taxes that places such as New York and Massachusetts would use to their advantage to gain money. Other issues such as the slave trades and disputes over the land added to the stress between the republics, but the worst was most likely the unpaid debts. The unpaid debts consisted of a chain from the the wealthy banks of London to the farmers in new england. When the Banks of London demanded the financiers of the cities to pay, the financiers turned to the merchants, which in turn turned to the farmers. The farmers then started the "Shay Rebellion", and armed themselves with whatever to could rather then losing their land.
With all these problems happening in America, proposals for solutions must be made. One solution would be to unify all the states so that the population of those states would be governed under the same laws and rules. Another solution, as Madison plans to do at the convention, is to reform the government in a way so that it will become more productive and efficient.
Prior to the constitutional convention, the general mood was negative for several reasons. These reasons included that the currency had lessened in value, tension existed between the states, the national treasury was empty, the country had debt, and violence could spread throughout the country. Another large problem was with farmers. The farmers demanded payment from businessmen. The businessmen not only refused, but also ordered payment from the farmers. These actions led to Shays’ Rebellion. These issues were particularly worrisome because the national government could not end these problems since the states possessed all the power. The states were also acting like thirteen separate countries, rather than one unified country. Consequently, no problems could be solved. For example, the country could not eliminate its debts. This is because the states denied the national government the ability to tax. Another problem was with trades taxes. The states with good harbors put taxes on imports and the government could not end this issue as they did not have the power to control commerce.
There was one clear solution to these problems. America needed a completely new constitution, in which the states had less power. Such a government would give the country more power and enable it to solve any problems that arise. The division between the states would also be solved by this government. Rather than each state act individually, this government compelled them to act collectively. This is because this government could solve each state’s problems. Each state would not have to solve its problems on its own.
The two initial prompts seem to have been answered in an exemplary way, so I will continue onto another aspect of these events which I find interesting.
The articles of confederation seem like a good form of government. They provide a forum for different states to negotiate with each other and give states the freedom to regulate themselves. This means that each region should have laws that address the local issues in a way that our present federal system cannot. This system would have been ideal if it had worked.
Our readings try to identify the issues with this system, which should work so well. They identify both internal and external issues with the united nation created by the American Revolution. The states did not like each other, and fought amongst themselves. Nations around the world preyed on the disharmony between the American States.
The assumption behind the Articles of Confederation is that the States will not only unite to defend their union, but will also unite to improve the conditions in every state.
This clearly did not happen.
Personal greed was getting in the way of that which was good for the nation. A strong government which could rein in all of the state governments and impel selfless action by the population.
I am sorry for rambling on, I have tried to cut this down as much as possible.
My main point really is that in times of crisis, a strong and unifying government seems to be a reliable and effective method for safeguarding our future.
So before the constitutional convention all the states seemed to be too busy basking in their sovereignty to realize that they not only did they function poorly internally under the Articles of Confederation, but also they owed Britain and by not paying these debts, put themselves further into dysfunction. In a chain effect, every citizen was affected by the debts (farmers-->merchants-->importers-->banking houses as explained on page 12.) Though independent, the United States was now more vulnerable than ever and began to be taken advantage by the rest of the world. Hypothetically, the small states were great for governing close to the people, but in order to defend themselves and become a major world player, they needed to unite under a central government with a executive and judicial branch (! United States' hatching unique State-Federal system <3)
When I try to think of solutions to all of the problems faced, I actually think the constitution and subsequent government was obviously far from perfect, but incredibly well-thought out and somewhat functional (swoon, American politics.)
In addition to some of the "prevailing forces" mentioned above, I thought what it said on page 13 was equally influential (not to mention a bit cool.)
"Humiliation was as powerful an impetus toward reform as anything else, and probably more powerful than most."
Before the convention there were some lovers and haters but mostly everyone was a skeptic. The very few who thought that the convention was a wonderful idea, like Madison and Benjamine Franklin, believed that it was time for a totally rearranged government. For example, Madison was granted permission to hold the convention “for the sole and express purpose of revising the Articles of Confederation” to “tender the federal constitution adequate to the exigencies* of Government and the preservation of the Union”, but spent the whole winter planning a new government in his mind. As for the haters Rhode Island refused to show up and New Hampshire showed up 2 months late. Every one else didn’t quite seem sure where to stand. Even His Excellency General Washington was not sure what to think of the gathering or weather he should even attend. It was clear that something had to be done to save the union from further humiliation and collapse, but just how to go about this was the tricky part. This filled the convention and country with tension. Tempers were already high over issues like the national debt, trade, inflation, and westward expansion. Adding the countries governing document to the list of things that needed fixing was just another something to fight over.
Before the Constitutional Convention, the states had all the power, and each was working for its own interests. Only six of thirteen states had rights to the territory to the west, and claims to the unsettled land put them at odds with each other. One main problem, though, was the trail of debt, the majority of which was ultimately to be paid to European nations - both England, which was owed debts from before the Revolutionary War, as well as those nations (France) which allied themselves with the Colonies during the war - however, the current Confederation Congress had no means of forcing each state to pay their share. Additional debts were owed to those who had financed the war, and to those who had fought in it (or the families of those who died in it). As the farmers, at the "bottom of the heap," could not pay their debts, when they begged their state governments for help, the states simply printed excessive amounts of paper money, effectively making all paper money worthless. This even divided the citizens living in the same states, between the poor, who needed this new currency, and the wealthy, who stood to lose from the distribution of wealth (this is one of many ideas in the readings that are still prevalent today, as a very small minority of mainly white males own almost all of the wealth in the entire country). These privileged few also were upset that ordinary people (the "lower sort") were now involved in politics. Another divide, as previously elaborated on, was the issue of trade, in which states with port towns charged ludicrous taxes on the goods they traded to the other states - who could stop them?
The overarching problem which caused the state divides was simply that the federal government had no power over the individual states. Barbash even quotes the Declaration of Independence as declaring America a nation of "Free and Independent States," instead of a "free and independent nation," (Barbash, 10) and the individual states already had their own constitutions, and saw themselves as separate entities. The solution was a federal constitution, which would prohibit the states from controlling the others, and allow the nation to work cooperatively, because the states were failing when working toward their own benefits.
I agree that the text exposed the main reasons why we were in such a crisis. Brief summery of what I understood for the basics was: The government didn't cause all the problems. Because the states were in control, Congress could not step in to help with major problems, such as land, trade, and slave trade. Westward expansion, pirates and poor functioning harbors all led to major issues, needing to be dealt with by a larger force than just a state itself. But, "The congress could do nothing, for it was denied the power..." (pg 11).
Reputation was a major theme that i saw in the reading. For every politicians decisions it talked about they also talked about how they thought it would affect them personally, especially with Washington. He changed his mind several times about attending the convention and being president of it due to what was happening at that time and how it would make him look. Viewed as a leader for this country, i think it influenced many to make decisions relative to their reputation more than anything else. This caused the country to have the reputation of the leaders combined.
okay, so this post is mostly regarding the first reading, because I'm only half way though the second one.
Essentially, thinking about how the United States was doing right now just totally stresses me out. I mean, its like the worst nightmare of creating a nation. You have this totally radical separation from the big brother (england) and then that super righteous radical spirit just kind of... turns in on itself.
"We have contended with the most powerful nation and subdued the bravest and best appointed armies; but now we have to contend with ourselves."
What I found super interesting in the reading was how the new "elite" of the united states suddenly started doubting the very reasons/methods for the American Revolution-- realizing that if they were going to create a nation that gave voice to the people, to the lower classes... they actually had to listen. And those are a lot of voices. It was "democracy-run-wild"!!
the main struggle of trying to attain... unity seemed to be well illustrated by this quote:
"they took seriously the words of the declaration of independence that had declared America not a free and independent nation, but a nation of free and independent states."
the united states wanted unity without sacrificing anyone (sorry: white male)'s voice, and it seems like they didn't really know how to do that. They didn't have any example to follow either.
It was kind of funny how goofily helpless the senate was characterized as.
I'll probably have more to say after finishing the second reading, but I wanted to get this up before 10:30.
Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 2 Location: United States
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject:
1. People were trying hard to deal with the Confederation Congress' "imbecility", due to the fact that there were too many huge problems facing the fragmented country to deal with. However, people were afraid of a strong centralized government because of their struggle with the British not long before. Americans were afraid of a large, distant government. They believed that governments should be small and close by. America at this time was in her adolescence, still trying to deal with the responsibility of being her own independent country, much like an adolescent person has identity problems. Each state was its own little country. The citizens had little to no say in what went on however. It was all decided for them by higher up officials.
2. America was in shambles at this time.
-People were overwhelmed by all the decisions to make.
-There were disagreements between states (about slavery, land use...ect...)
-There was nobody to make the decisions for the people, they needed someone to guide them.
-There were several debts to pay, and little money to pay with.
Before the constitutional convention America had taken a turn for the worse, the general enthusiasm surrounding the Declaration of Independence had diminished, and America as a country was beginning to fall apart. Individual states didn’t consider each other to be part of a collective nation, but rather they thought of themselves as individual countries, each with their own government. Along with this separation came greed, and individual treasuries trumped the concern of countrywide debt. Before the constitutional convention this greed was beginning to backfire as everyone began demanding money that nobody was able to provide. The farmers got the worst deal in this cycle, and they took to the streets in protest, proving the need for action. At this point the constitutional convention began to truly take shape.
The personalities that were present in the constitution process were seemingly quite varied. As discussed in “prelude to the convention,” Washington and Madison were very different, yet both were present and important in the time leading up to the constitutional convention. Washington was the face of the convention, proving to the public that it was a serious meeting. Madison, on the other hand, was not a public figure, and was shown in the reading as the brains behind the operation.
At the time of the constitutional convention America was in a rut because of the states being too separate. Due to this separation, each state thought only of their own treasury, not giving any money to the country as a whole. The congress had no power or money, thus being unable to pay back soldiers, or allies, or England for the debts that they owed. This lack of money soon turned into a fiasco when individual states started printing mass amounts of paper money without anything to back it up. Money became useless, and when other countries demanded their debts be paid, America started taking it out on the little guy. People realized that there were problems with the government as it was, so much so that it was hinted that there were people who wished to go back to a monarchy. Clearly the defect in America’s current system was that there was no overarching government holding the states together. This needed to be a delicate balance, however, because too much power would not benefit the people, and not enough would keep things in their current state.
I liked the begining and middle of this reading very much. So I suppose that means that I did not like "Prelude to the Convention" It sumed up or rather stated very simply that the problem with the Government before the constitutional convention was that there was not a strong enough central government. Every other post summed this up pretty well and I do not want to be too repetitive so I will comment on a statement that Travis made. I think it is interesting that you believe this could be a working form of government after reading this packet that was so clearly against the articles of confederation. However in reality this is a debate that carries on today and many people feel that the central government is too powerful. I tend to believe in a large central government as it reduces civil war. I even believe that there should be a very powerful international law that has more jurisdiction than the U.N.
I thought the most interesting problem with the U.S at this time was the fact that people weren't taking the currency seriously. It is interesting to think about what gives something value I suppose it has to do with two main factors: Difficulty to obtain and an agreement among the people using it. And the new American money wasn't backed by anything because it wasn't backed by anything according to your friends. Plus they had to print allot. Its just like the stock market. If something is valuable it is valuable just because it is. So faith in the U.S bill is faith in the U.S as a whole.
The general mood in America was distress. America was faced with many problems and initially did not have the ability to solve them. The dominant themes between many of these problems were financial. For starters, America had a large national debt to pay due to the war. As Wesley said, “the states denied the national government the ability to tax.” This meant it was extremely difficult to pay back the debt. In addition, the trade war played a role in the distress of America. The trade war prohibited international trade in the West Indies. With this predicament, the states had to rely on their own ports. The states with good harbors, New York, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania took control. However, the good port states took advantage of the rest of the states. With the knowledge that the other states relied on them so much for goods, they heavily taxed the goods. This left the other states furious. At this point it was clear that every state was working for it’s own interest. There was no way to punish states that did something wrong. There was an overall lack of structure for dealing with these types of problems. The country was in chaos and feelings of uncertainty, fear, anger, and distrust consumed the states.
The Declaration of Independence declared, “America not a free and independent nation, but a nation of Free and Independent states.” (p. 10) In my opinion, this was the one of the most important issues that led to the constitutional convention. As Tasha said, “All, or at least most, of the issues America faced resulted from or was extenuated by the lack of unity and communication between states. ” Basically, America had a weak government that held little power. There was no way to regulate every single state. Also there were no legal consequences if a state did something bad. The lack of government structure needed to be fixed. The states needed to come together and pay off their debt and unite under one straightforward set of rules and punishments to form a stronger country.
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