Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:05 pm Post subject: Kant and Hegel: Day 2
In preparation for our upcoming seminar discussion (Thursday) and our next paper (due Friday), please "talk" with each other about your ideas on the following:
Make a list of Kant's top (at least) 4 ideas and Hegel's top (at least) 4 ideas. Looking at these ideas, what impact do they have on the disciplines of Science and History? Start by thinking about Kant's impact on Science and Hegel's on History. Then, think about Kant's the impact or influence on History, and Hegel's on Science.
Kant
-there are necessary relation/inherent a priori knowledge as a basic framework in nature and in our thought, that things must conform to
-some rational, a priori knowledge of nature is inborn in man and they are universal truth(?)
-empirical science is impossible without some a priori knowledge
-the behavior of men assumes the existence of “underlying necessities”, otherwise "their conduct would be meaningless" (478)
Hegel
-there is no reality until we know it. "The real is the rational and the rational is the real"
-universal spirit (reason) reveals itself
-the dialectic process (thesis+antithesis-->synthesis) always moves to a higher synthesis, and the changes in the world are changes for the better
-history is the progress not a record, and can't reach a final form/static state
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Kant's impact on science:
Kant thought causal relationships were not all based upon our custom, that there were some necessary connections which underlie experience and were fundamental to our empirical knowledge. (the universal truth without the need of experience or reason)
He also implied the existence of absolute truth in nature by claiming a priori knowledge is inherent and same for all human.
Hegel's impact on history:
pointing out that history is a progress and not a record, so we then know we can grasp the present and future better by understanding the past. "History presents a people with their own image in a condition which thereby becomes objective to them"
Hegel also suggested that the progression that history made would lead to an ideal world. Because similar to the dialectic process, changes in the world are changes for the better.
My idea on how Kant impacted history is a little vague:
Because we take a priori knowledge as granted and they are inherent to us, we would assume future to conform to the past/our supposition of the future. Then we may find patterns in history that applies to the present and future.
Kant also points out that there are moral necessities, without which human conduct would be meaningless. That is to say human conducts all follow a definite morality and thus history follows repetitive pattern implied by the moral necessity.
Hegel's impact on science:
He saw nature as a progression, which alludes to the idea of evolution. By applying the dialectic method to reality, Hegel saw each step of negation in the process of "becoming" important as successions of a revolution.
Make a list of Kant's top (at least) 4 ideas and Hegel's top (at least) 4 ideas. Looking at these ideas, what impact do they have on the disciplines of Science and History? Start by thinking about Kant's impact on Science and Hegel's on History. Then, think about Kant's the impact or influence on History, and Hegel's on Science.
Hegel:
1) Believed everything progressed, and with history, changed for the better.
2) Thought "There is no reality until we know it." (63)
3) Like Aristotle, believed in opposites. "Every process in life calls for a contradictory process." (63)
4) you have to look at every discipline through the context of its history
5) history is man
Kant:
1) Believed there was the known and the knower, and when the two met, knowledge was created.
2) Though that people had a framework of knowledge and moral embedded in them before they were born. Priori.
3) Believed there was a reality separate from man, "Thing-in-itself"
4) "free will in man was a necessity of nature." (61)
Hegel influenced History and Science simultaneously with his though of progression. "Hegel, for the first time, saw all progress, whether in the history of man or in the evolution of life, as the succession of revolutionary steps." (63) This sentence is so powerful because not only does it shape the definition of history, it also depicts a very important aspect of science. This sentence sums up that in both History and Science, the overlapping element is the search to find the reason of why things change.
Kant :
1.) Priori knowledge is key aspect of knowledge understand what surrounds you
2.)You need to be able to comprehend and understand everything you witness and experience
3.)We experience and understand things differently than other people (its a very individualistic experience)
4.)Moral/natural necessities keep us on a path
Hegel:
1.)The knower and to be known are strongly connected (something that Kant also believes)
2.)"…there is no reality until we know it." (63)
3.)History is constantly continuing and there is never an ending point
4.)Dialectic is constantly changing/evolving=the process
I agree with Rowan that Hegel's impact on History and Science with his never ending idea of change/progression and that everything is always evolving. Although, I think that one quote that summed up his impact on history is, "History to him is the great transformer, the great mover…" I also think its interesting that he refers to history as a she. For Kant I believe he impacted history and science through his idea of Priori knowledge. For history the idea of understanding what is around you in order to make a change, as well as relating it to the past, which will allow it to be relevant for the future. And for science, I think it has to do more with patterns and understanding the environment you live in/that surrounds you.
I am not sure if we are supposed to post a question or not, but if we do have to mine would be: out of these two men, who is the Father of History? Who is the Father of Science? Can one man be both?
Kant:
1. There are necessary relations in nature: space and time for example, that we know a priori and serve as basic frameworks.
2. All empirical laws of nature must conform to the necessities of space and time.
3. Nature can only be understood when we acknowledge the existence of a priori knowledge.
4. Man and nature are profoundly in accord (no mention of God), for a priori knowledge of nature and morality were both inborn in man.
5. Free will in man was a necessity of nature.
6. Man is not simply a passive receiver of the outside world. The knower (self or ego, which still is a part of the universe) and the known influence and create one another.
7. There exists a reality independent of men with a thing-in-itself behind.
Hegel:
1. There must be a profound unity between the knower and the known.
2. The unity of knowing consists of two opposites, and the conflict between them synthesizes into knowledge itself.
3. Life takes its important steps only when it synthesizes these two (the contradictory process) into a higher form, for life is not merely being or nonbeing, it is becoming.
4. All process, whether in the history of man or in the evolution of life, is a succession of revolutionary steps.
5. There is no reality until we know it, for we and the outside world exist virtually only by knowing each other.
6. Thinking not only proves but also creates one’s existence.
7. Being and knowing aren’t opposite of each other; they fuse into a single synthesis of experience.
8. History of the world is the world’s court of justice, in which the universal spirit reveals itself
I agree with both Lex and Rowan in that Hegel proposed the idea of progressing and thus brought in the whole concept of evolution. I also think instead of looking at Hegel’s impact on History then on Science or vise versa, this whole process should be considered as a whole because I think one of Hegel’s most important contributions is that he fused History and Science and together brought human mind to another level. For Kant, I think what he did was also essential, which is proposing the idea of a priori knowledge, both in Science and in History. I agree with him that we could know things only because we have the most basic framework-info inborn in us. But I also think since the knowledge is inherent we don’t even need to force ourselves to acknowledge its existence all the time, but simply apply it to other processes of knowing.
Responding to Lex’s question: those are great questions! Hrm, I think maybe I would go with Hegel’s the father of history, as well as Science (so yes, surely those can be one person ) because he proposed a few new ways of thinking, which are: a). Man is history; and that only an understanding of history can enable man to understand himself(p.64) and b). by grasp the present better we ought to understand how it grew from the past, and above both, we shall have our eye on the future(p.65 Art of Prediction aha!).
I think Lex posted a great question, so I’d like the next person(if you may) to also consider: Who is the Father of History? Of Science? Can they be both?
I am not sure exactly what to do because my four points have been very well covered between the first three posts and my ideas on Hegel and Kant's effects are also covered in the posts put together.
So I will pose questions, or at least other important things I thought the reading brought up, that will hopefully further this virtual "discussion".
A major thing I thought of form the reading, is not changing my deffinitions of history or science, but making my view of philosophy, which is science and history put together. And I think that is important in the older and maybe continuing work of the now more split, "science" and "history" fields. Boiled down to their essence the science is the how and the history is the why. Sort of like in class when we talked about different people looking at how vs. why of universe.
Bringing this back to Rachel's prompt, these are some of the thoughts that influence what I think of as Hegel and Kant's "contributions", which as previously said are covered by the three previous posts (in combination). Not sure if this is an ok post but, to avoid repeition I will do. So as a discussion point, maybe people after me will say big ideas loosely from reading that influenced their answers to Reachel's questions.
(also Mijia Congrats for getting to post first!! ^_^ you did it! )
People really have covered everything, but I'll chime in too.
Kant:
1. There is a necessary framework of nature upon which experience can be added that is in us all as priori knowledge.
2. It is only with this priori knowledge can we understand nature, and because of this knowledge we are in an accord with nature itself.
3. Humanity also has a priori knowledge of morality (sorry God).
4. Humanity is an active perceiver of nature. While there is a "thing-in-itself," in viewing something it changes and the knower and the know influence each-other to alter perception.
Hegel:
1. There is no "thing-in-itself." Reality does not even exists until it is perceived by the knower.
2. The world and history acts in terms of opposites, which synthesize into something greater. Change is progress, and the world moves in the direction of improvement.
3. History is the expression of the soul of a people. It is the universal spirit, and the universal court of morality.
4. And then he gets off the beaten track and introduces the essential integration of church and state and the whole state is always right bit/change is bad. Which is in disaccord with his previous work, but...
Kant's work led science in the direction of the theory of relativity, which we base all of our modern work off of. He was the first to determine that in viewer, we change what is viewed, and although his theory wasn't perfect, it was the first step in the right direction. Hegel's impact on history is equally apparent, as his view's on history as the expression of the spirit and the court of justice are extremely visible in the modern day, and in the time leading up to it.
Hegel's impact on science seems to be his idea of progression in nature. That the world is moving towards a better state. While this isn't quite true of all of reality, it does apply to life quite well (in fact one definition of life is that it moves towards order, instead of chaos), and gives us theories such as evolution. Kant's impact on history seems vague. The most evident is the fact that Hegel's work is a continuation of Kant's, thus Hegel's contribution to the field would not have occurred if Kant had not written anything. Beyond that I would say that his statement that all men have a priori knowledge of morals, and that this includes free will, provides a different lens to look back upon history than they were using in his time.
Kant
Some things could not be different. There must be priori knowledge for empirical science to be possible
"Nature must conform to causality because causality is the only way in wich we can grasp her workings"
Humans are naturally connected with the outside world. The knower and the known are connected
Humans are born with priori knowledge of nature and morality
There are "things-in-themselves"
Hegel
Things only exist when known. "The knower and the known are fused in a single synthesis of experience"
Every process or thing has its antithesis and the conflict or interaction between the thesis and antithesis creates "a higher form," which goes beyond the individual values of the thing and its antithesis.
History is the "working out" and realization of the spirit of men.
History is not approaching a final form
The state is an expression of the spirit of man.
hegelhistory
Hegel's emphasis on the state as an "ends" influenced history greatly. This ideology justified dictatorships because their government, no matter how oppressive, is the expression of the spirit of the people.
His dialectic method reframed history away from documenting the victors of conflicts, towards understanding the effects of the conflict itself. The conflict between the thesis and its antithesis creates a higher form outside the realm of the original two parties.
He said that certain men shaped history. Heroes express the dialectic of history because they combine their own personal goals with universal morality. These two conflicting influence create the higher form which is the seed of change or progress within a society. History is formed by this dialectic process. History is formed by the will of an individual interacting with the morals of a people.
hegelscience
Hegel believed that things existed because they were known. The knower and the known exist in "a single synthesis of experience." The only thing that truly existed was the spirit whose existence derived from the prioris of morals and reason. Everything followed these frameworks of morality and reason, including nature. This affected his views on science. For example, he believed that the number of planets, 7 at that time, existed as it did our of necessity rather than accident. He believed that nature followed the same logic that humans are born with and it was only logical for the number of planets to equal seven.
He believed that life progressed in a "succession of revolutionary steps." Each new stage of life throws off the last one. The blossom replaces the bud.
Kant History
His belief in a universal morality helped frame the actions of men in history. History grew from the simple question of "who won?" to examining the moral implications of the victory and loss. Did the outcome forward the universal morality?
He believed that without morality, the actions of men were meaningless. He believed morality was the scale by which to judge the actions of men. That was a good deed, that caused a lot of suffering.
He reemphasized the importance of causality which had been said to be a baseless idea. This was important, because without causality, there's no reason to look at history as a progression of events all affecting each other, you only have to look at individual events in isolation from each other.
Kant and science
It's hard to do science when you think that no real connections exist between anything in existence. By saying that true connections must exist between at least some phenomenon, he made it possible, once again, to trust empirical evidence and experimentation.
He said that causality is the only way us humans can understand the world so thus the world must conform to our causality. This meant that the logic inside us exists in the real world. This is important because it links our logic to that of the outside world and opens up scientific exploration to the exploration of reason. This opened up science to things like Einstein's thought experience. Obviously, many previous thinkers have thought about the world from within their own mind, but to say that the stuff out there follows the same reasoning that's in your head is powerful because it means the fundamental answers to the universe, exist already inside you.
Hegel:
1) "there is no reality until we know it." all reality is dependent on men to "know the outside world" as we are dependent on it
2)progress as a "succession of revolutionary steps."
3) synthesis: know-er and what is known together synthesize knowledge. thesis and antithesis synthesizer to create a higher understanding.
4)history and change as the "great mover" that defines all change and all change is good in that it moves us towards a more complex integrated fullness.
Kant:
1) "the thing itself" unlike Hegel Kant said there was always the thing itself just imposed on by the know-er but always there is the thing itself independent of humans.
2)humans as part of nature, Kant made nature and man no longer separate and instead said that they were in natural accord reason was a thing in tune with the universe and morality was inborn in man he made nature no longer an obstacle but "natural conditions for human freedom"
3)space and time as a basic necessary frame work that all laws of nature must hold to
4)moral necessities guide nature and science
Hegel's impact on history is in his thought on history not as a recording of events but rather as a mover of them as the "great transformer" and veiwing the future in terms of advancement
Hegel's impact on science comes in his theory that everything moves in steps forwards, which is similar to the theory of evolution.
kants impact on history is to lead us away from the record and the who the how and the what to the why behind all those his focus on morality gives reason to look at the people and their whys
Kant in science: his framework to nature and the need for empirical evidence to stand within a foundation of Porfirio knowledge
Kant:
1. A priori knowledge exists is necessary to gain knowledge through experience.
2. Nature must conform to causality, as that's the only way we can understand things
3. Man and nature coexist and harmonize with each other, not to the degree of Hegel though, and God plays no part
4. Morality is a priori
Hegel:
1. Man and nature are at odds, and knowledge is gained as they spontaneously harmonize with each other
2. Knowledge is gained through a series of steps
3. We define our own reality - "thinking creates it"
4. Man is history, understanding the past is necessary to fully understand himself
Kant and science: Kant created the idea of a priori knowledge and that nature is inherently logical, and as such we can use our deductions and experience for scientific analysis.
Kant and history: I wouldn't go so far as to say that Kant believed in a universal morality, but he acknowledged that morality and other such factors are internal motivations that humans have to proceed down a road.
Hegel and science: As others have mentioned, Hegel's most important was in regards to evolution, and that progression occurs in steps.
Hegel and history: Hegel really emphasizes the purpose of studying history rather than the philosophy or methods behind it. He believes that history is essential to the nature of mankind and is also a priori.
The first page of the reading states that Hegel “devoted (himself) to problems which other philosophers had left him.” Therefore, his four biggest contributions either complete former theories or introduce a new idea.
1. The unity between the knower and what he knows (Kant’s theory) is a unity of opposites, which creates knowledge. (62 + 63)
2. “Hegel, for the first time, saw all progress… as a succession of revolutionary steps.”
3. No such thing as a thing-in-itself. Thinking and being creates man’s reality.
4. Hegel’s “universal spirit” theory: recognizes the state as the vehicle for the universal spirit, despite earlier emphasis on the individual.
Kant dedicated his career to prove foundations for the science of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
1. “Is there a framework on which experience is founded, without which the mind cannot grasp the external world at all?” (59)
2. Claimed that time and space were a priori – a basic framework of nature. (Even though he was mistaken, I think it was a big part of his work.)
3. Believed empiricism could not sufficiently explain nature, which could only be understood through a structure of a priori knowledge. He also said that basic knowledge is a prerequisite for understanding empirical science.
4. “There are moral necessities in nature as well as scientific ones.” (61)
I also agree with Rowan’s statement about Hegel’s contribution to History and Science, because I think Hegel’s viewpoint set the precedent for future philosophers. (Though I could have misinterpreted the reading on that one).
I think people pretty much covered all the major points of Kant and Hegel, so I will just jump into their influence on science and history.
Kant's contribution to science would be his notion that in order to know something, we need to know some other things beforehand. He disbelieved in empiricism, and indeed science is not something can be attained by merely studying the superficial aspects of an object or an event. Logic must be utilized and we should not separate ourselves from the nature. It's when we are in accord we can find "necessities" in nature.
Hegel had very interesting views on history that people become objective in viewing their images projected in history. He also explained history is meant to show progress and evolution rather than a record of past events.
I don't feel I have anything to the "four points" list, but i'll write some things i though important/interesting/confusing/worth pursuing
Kant
"whatever the empirical laws of nature, Kant held that they must conform to the necessities of space and time as we know them".
I think it is interesting how he is attempting to frame science. I also find the "Must conform" thought interesting
Kant's impact on science is significant as he "removed" g-d from science. I thought Kant not mentioning g-d is pretty incredible considering the time he lived. Also, simply that Kant influenced other scientists after him allows for the possibility of an impact (for both science and history) of infinite proportions.
I was't able to finish Hegel's but I will for the seminar. I was able to read a bit though and I am interested in discussing Hegel's "profound unity between the knower and what he knows"
Also, if anyone can help me, I'm a little fuzzy on "priori"... Hope I see you all tomorrow! gonna be interesting reentering discussions after being out for so long..
1. Certain Priori knowledge must exist to validate any understandings based on empiricism. (Things that cannot be different)
2. Man and nature are inherently in accord with each other.
3. "... there are moral necessities in nature as well as scientific ones."
4. Moral Imperatives are therefore inborn in men
Hegel's Big 4:
1: Perception of the world creates it
2: Progress is always through the process of dialectics. The result is synthesized when the thesis or antithesis overcomes the other. (Thus all progress is improvement?)
3: History is the ongoing realization of the world-spirit, is driven largely by "heroes" acting of their own accord, outside of morality.
4: States are a manifestation of a collectively conscious world-spirit.
Kant on Science: enforced the existence of necessary absolute truths. That do not require empirical acquisition or testing. Also he was a proponent of the importance of the observer, which as was previously stated, provides a framework for relativity.
Kant on History: Unclear
Hegel: Proposed that history was the realization of man's collective spirit. It expressed itself as nations, and in such away was constantly evolving, and through dialectics improving.
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) because he proposed a few new ways of thinking, which are: a). Man is history; and that only an understanding of history can enable man to understand himself(p.64) and b). by grasp the present better we ought to understand how it grew from the past, and above both, we shall have our eye on the future(p.65 Art of Prediction aha!).
