free forum make a forum for free message boards free forum hosting free phpbb forum phpbb create free forum

abhatia · Joined: 26 Jan 2011 Posts: 37

Does the 'Iron Dice' tell us that World War One was a result of missplaced loyalty?

knaide · Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Posts: 6 Location: United States

Not only misplaced loyalty, but also perhaps taking advantage of others trust. Like When Austria Declared War on Serbia after didn’t comply with the 10 demands of the ultimatum. Kaiser didn’t ask to see the ultimatum until it was too late and War had been declared. As he wrote, “This is more than one could have expected! A great moral success for Vienna; but with it every reason for war drops away…After such a thing I should never have ordered mobilization.” Kaiser came to regret his pledge to Austria, having placed his loyalties in a War-bound nation.
Though honestly, this reading brought about more questions for than answers. It is difficult to understand why Austria felt the need to initiate war with Serbia, and also feel making an alliance with another country would just be a bigger deal and going to war isn’t something an entire country would be dragged into.

Maddy King · Joined: 28 Mar 2012 Posts: 9

It wasn't until page 22 when I had to stop and read a sentence again... When Austria-Hungary officially declared war on Serbia, the Kaiser was "cruising on his yacht" (22) and did not bother to look at Serbia's reply until the day war was declared. This is undoubtedly misplaced loyalty, the Kaiser claimed to be so shaken up by the assassination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand, that he called Serbians bandits and murderers. Yet when a declaration of war is made he is in the North Sea. I just found the loyalty that was placed in Kaiser by Austria and his pledge to Austria, is was all very fake and not well thought out. (From the Kaiser side)

kscrimshawhall12 · Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Posts: 6

The thing that stood out to me the most in this reading was the role of family and relationships and how it affected the start of the war. I think misplaced loyalty happened on more of a personal level than a political one. This is demonstrated when Kaiser corresponds with his cousin Czar Nicholas II. In his telegrams he pleads the Czar not to attack, citing their friendship and close familial relationships as reason not to. The Czar agrees in a friendly letter, but then betrays his cousin and makes the first aggressive move. This betrayal is personal and therefore more painful. Once human emotions get involved everything gets more complicated. There are people behind those missiles and their emotions are what I believe led to the war. Feeling scared and betrayed, the leaders acted a little more on their heart than their head, I think.

fbeaubrun2012 · Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Posts: 9

I agree that not only was it a result of missplaced loyalty, but also a great deal of fear (and mistrust as others before me have said). "They made them in fear and in trembling...they were not evil people bent on destruction but frightened and entrapped by self delusion. They based their policies on fears, not facts, and were singularly devoid of empathy." But I also get the feeling that Germany simply wanted a war. I think that Germany in many ways, even through just it's simple support of Austria-Hungary, egged them on. It was kind of like, Germany was always saying, "Hey A-H, are you really going to let them do that to you? push you around like that?" Pardon my analogy, but like a catty girl instigating a fight between other girls. The other reading we had argued that Germany simply wanted a fight, and I think that argument is really staring to come to life. The German general staff Helmuth von Moltke "believed that sooner or later war was inevitable." I also thought it would be interesting to point out that the emperor in A-H said that Franz Ferdinand's offspring wouldn't be allowed to have the right to succession of the throne, and yet, "his fury and indignation towards the Serbians were thoroughly aroused." Interesting how the nationalism was so strong in and extended so far into the people.

mikaelajoyce · Joined: 28 Mar 2012 Posts: 6

In Stoessinger’s thesis, he states “They were not evil people bent on destruction but frightened and entrapped by self-delusion. They based their policies on fears, not facts, and were singularly devoid of empathy. Misperception, rather than conscious evil design, seems to have been the leading villain in the drama,” (20). Self delusion sort of works as an umbrella term for some of the misplaced trust and manipulations going on before and during World War I. What started as a conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia evolved into a brutal war that involved several European countries and the United States.

I agree with what Kate and Maddy said about the Kaiser and his emotional response to the situation. The relationship between the Kaiser and Czar Nicholas II seems a little bizarre considering what happened between Germany and Russia during the war. It seems that conflicting loyalties and misplaced trust caused World War I.

msingh2012 · Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Posts: 7 Location: United States

I completely agree with Maddy and that it wasn’t until pg 22 that I realized the disordered fidelity that led to WW1. Kaiser didn’t bother to notice the problems that were happening with Serbia until the day Austria Hungary declared war on Serbia. In fact, he was somewhere in the North Atlantic Sea possibly on vacation, “During these faithful days Kaiser was cruising on his yacht in the North Sea. He showed so little interest in the matter that he did not even ask to see the text of the Serbian reply until the morning of July 28, a few hours before Austria declared war (22).”The Iron Dice showed us the truth, WW1 was a result of misplaced loyalty by the Kaiser on Austria Hungary.
_________________
Manveer Singh

shawks · Joined: 14 Feb 2012 Posts: 13

One would haved thought that Russia would have been more on Austria-Hungary's side because both of them had monarchies under threat during the time. The Czar had already made enemies of many of his people. There was an attempted revolution in 1905 that the Czar Nicholas should have paid more attention to before deciding to go into another war. The Archduke was murdered not long after that. Wilhelm, Nicholas's cousin from Germany, at least tried to negotiate. His goal was to keep the conflict only between Austria and Serbia. "I beg you in the name of our old friendship to do what you can to stop your allies from going too far." [13] Nicholas was not clear enough in his reply, and as a result, Russia fought against Germany and Austria-Hungary.

dkim2012 · Joined: 27 Mar 2012 Posts: 9

I think world war one was resulted partially from misplaced loyalty and partially from the fear. The content has mentioned that due to fear and trembling, Europeans decided to join devastated war. In p.20, 'Tehy were not evil people bent on destruction but frightened and entrapped by selfdelusion. They based their pokicies on fears, not facts, and were singularly devoid of empathy.' Thier fear of being dominated by other contries and distrust made them to cause WW1.
Also, i agreed what manveer mentioned above that if Kaiser would have prepared for the war more carefully, the war could have prevented more casualties.

Free Forum